Vacuum?
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Any controversial topic can be discussed. Freedom of expression is encouraged. The scientific validity of things posted in this forum may stray from reality quite wildly and the reader is advised to keep that in mind. Please refrain from bad language and DO NOT get overly abusive with other members. You MUST post in English. It is OK to have fiercely intense debate. This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site. The views here do not represent the forum's views or my views in any way. It is meant as a place to debate or discuss subjects that may create heated debate. Almost no moderation will occur in this forum at all.
Any controversial topic can be discussed. Freedom of expression is encouraged. The scientific validity of things posted in this forum may stray from reality quite wildly and the reader is advised to keep that in mind. Please refrain from bad language and DO NOT get overly abusive with other members. You MUST post in English. It is OK to have fiercely intense debate. This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site. The views here do not represent the forum's views or my views in any way. It is meant as a place to debate or discuss subjects that may create heated debate. Almost no moderation will occur in this forum at all.
Vacuum?
Hello,
The last few days there was in the news this paper where the US government admitted that UFO Hoax in Roswell (link). And on a site there was a comment and a link to a Berkeley University physics lecture about waves, wherein an explanation was given to what actually happened.
link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7622&hl=en
Anyway, an other interesting thing mentioned in the lecture is at minute 20 to 22 where the professor discusses the Aether and Vacuum and where he says: "What is the Vacuum made of? ... it is the thing that waves."
So perhaps less mysterious than the UFO's there is a thing that waves, but what is it, and why do particle physicist boldly ignore it?
ps: I thought of adding this to the Fishing with Dynamite (Blast fishing) topic in the End of the World section but I believe its an crucial question on its own.
The last few days there was in the news this paper where the US government admitted that UFO Hoax in Roswell (link). And on a site there was a comment and a link to a Berkeley University physics lecture about waves, wherein an explanation was given to what actually happened.
link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7622&hl=en
Anyway, an other interesting thing mentioned in the lecture is at minute 20 to 22 where the professor discusses the Aether and Vacuum and where he says: "What is the Vacuum made of? ... it is the thing that waves."
So perhaps less mysterious than the UFO's there is a thing that waves, but what is it, and why do particle physicist boldly ignore it?
ps: I thought of adding this to the Fishing with Dynamite (Blast fishing) topic in the End of the World section but I believe its an crucial question on its own.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Re: Vacuum?
I don't think putting quite a lot of effort into studying something can be called "ignoring".Chelle wrote:link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 7622&hl=en
Anyway, an other interesting thing mentioned in the lecture is at minute 20 to 22 where the professor discusses the Aether and Vacuum and where he says: "What is the Vacuum made of? ... it is the thing that waves."
So perhaps less mysterious than the UFO's there is a thing that waves, but what is it, and why do particle physicist boldly ignore it?
The matter is, regardless whether you want to call it vacuum or aether it's still the same thing. And there's no point in trying to assign it different properties through calling it a different name because it's the substance what's being studied, not the name.
Re: Vacuum?
With ignoring I meant: aligning cosmic ray collisions at high altitude, where there is a very low density of matter, to the setup of the LHC where (solid) matter is much denser, ignoring the possible fact that high energetic collisions could shake up surrounding matter through waves in the Vacuum.Kasuha wrote:I don't think putting quite a lot of effort into studying something can be called "ignoring".
As it is also done on the Wiki page of Vacuum:
"In quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, the vacuum is defined as the state with the lowest possible energy." - wiki
This should be: ... with the lowest possible energy measurable.
Granted.Kasuha wrote:The matter is, regardless whether you want to call it vacuum or aether it's still the same thing. And there's no point in trying to assign it different properties through calling it a different name because it's the substance what's being studied, not the name.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Re: Vacuum?
Chelle wrote:This should be: ... with the lowest possible energy measurable.
There's no need to make statements on obvious facts. The only way how we perceive the world around us is through measuring. All of our senses are measuring tools, which evolved to measure different physical properties of the world such as light or sound intensity, chemical composition, force direction etc.
There's sure no big deal with believing in existence of something that cannot be measured - the only problem is that it's called religion, not science.
Re: Vacuum?
So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?Kasuha wrote:There's sure no big deal with believing in existence of something that cannot be measured - the only problem is that it's called religion, not science.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Re: Vacuum?
Quite the opposite - LHC is a project aimed at (among others) either turning belief into Higgs into real science or proving Higgs is not measurable in which case scientists are going to abandon their beliefs in it.Chelle wrote:So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?
Re: Vacuum?
Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?Kasuha wrote:Quite the opposite - LHC is a project aimed at (among others) either turning belief into Higgs into real science or proving Higgs is not measurable in which case scientists are going to abandon their beliefs in it.Chelle wrote:So the LHC is a religious project as long as the God particle hasn't emerged?
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Re: Vacuum?
I don't see any problem in calling things one wants to believe without having a proof a religion. There's a whole lot of things I believe without having (or understanding) the proof. I just keep my freedom to choose things I believe and have my own methods how to consider if an idea is worth believing or not. And I don't have problem abandoning an idea if I later find it not worth believing.Chelle wrote:Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?
For instance, I don't have any proof LHC is working. It may be a great conspiracy with people in CERN sitting at their laptops busy generating random images, logs and pictures just to make us all over the world happy. But I choose to believe it actually runs.
On the other hand, I don't see any reason to believe your ideas and I rather tend to believe they are wrong because they don't match with my other beliefs - such as the belief that we still exist.
Re: Vacuum?
Ok, than I'll stop your 'religious' thoughts. Believing or considering something is a different thing than religion, here is some proof: "The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith or belief system, but religion differs ... " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ReligionKasuha wrote:I don't see any problem in calling things one wants to believe without having a proof a religion.Chelle wrote:Than why do you want to classify my thoughts of yet undetectable waves (frequencies), coming out of particle collisions and shaking up surrounding matter, as religious?
Your argumentation makes no sense. Its the same as saying: "We will not find the Higgs, because we haven't found it yet."Kasuha wrote:On the other hand, I don't see any reason to believe your ideas and I rather tend to believe they are wrong because they don't match with my other beliefs - such as the belief that we still exist.
My interest, or believe as you like to call it, is to know if different collision frequencies and settings have different results.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Re: Vacuum?
It's funny to see you to suddenly ask for rational argumentation.
"Let's assume the world is made of wooden domino bricks. AND I WANT A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ABOUT IT!"
"Let's assume the world is made of wooden domino bricks. AND I WANT A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ABOUT IT!"
Re: Vacuum?
Why question my rationality? All I have been doing is following my first impulse regarding high-energy collisions, and see if they could trigger a chain-reaction, domino's are here for a good analogy. When considering this option one has to take in account the structure of the Vacuum (Aether) because it could play a significant role.Kasuha wrote:It's funny to see you to suddenly ask for rational argumentation.
"Let's assume the world is made of wooden domino bricks. AND I WANT A SCIENTIFIC DEBATE ABOUT IT!"
There is also nothing fundamentally wrong with questioning the density of the collisions surrounding matter, or the frequency of collisions themselves, especially if you consider that we are surpassing energy levels of regular cosmic ray collisions, and that we are only topped by very rare single cases of ultra-high-energy-collisions, of which we know very little.
Edit: "Nambu, along with Jeffrey Goldstone and Peter Higgs, applied this idea to the quantum theory of fields, specifically to the lowest-energy state known as "the vacuum". The vacuum, generally thought of as the absence of matter, is surprisingly complex."
http://www-public.slac.stanford.edu/bab ... etries.htm
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich