I absolutely hate this experiment

Discussion of the end of the world brought about by ultra high energy colliders.
Stephen
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I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:32 pm

When I first heard about this experiment in September 2008, I was scared to death. When the world didn't end, I was incredibly relieved. However, a few months ago I read that collisions were never actually made. I can't go through a day without thinking about this experiment. I've read the LSAG report and I'm now better informed than I was last year, but I'm still a bit scared. I realize scientists are saying it's safe, but I always wonder "what if they are wrong?"
I never heard the theory of a false vacuum before. Turns out the whole universe could be destroyed by a vacuum bubble today or in 10 billion years. That is a very scary thought.
Anyone else still scared (but not trying to spread irrational fear, like in the lhc concerns forum)? By the way, according to Wikipedia collides will not exceed the energies of cosmic rays until 2150. I'm pretty sure scientists will not claim it's "perfectly safe" at these energies, as I'm sure they are rational people who don't want to die.

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Xymox » Mon Nov 23, 2009 1:32 am

I think we might reach cosmic ray energies sooner then 2150. The technology is progressing pretty fast. Yeap, exceeding those energies will leave no way to prove its safe. Well unless we learn more about physics before then.

You know, in 1985 when I first started reading up on the superconducting supercollider in development I was concerned. Took me a lot of reading to feel the best research had been done to check its safety. Then came the RHIC. This was even more dangerous. I read all the papers on that. Then came the LHC like 8+ years ago. Ive kept up with all that stuff too.

I am concerned. There is a danger. However not at the energies we measly humans can currently generate.

I know you have heard all this before. BUT I was like you. That was 30 years ago. I have since really done my research and been through all this a number of times. I really dont think there is a problem. I have looked objectively for issues, possible ways they could be wrong, looked at every paper for possible issues.

Cosmic rays and in particular ultra-high-energy cosmic rays being a 100% natural occurrence really do imply the LHC collisions are going to be safe.

Galaxy class black holes most likely spew out huge beams of these cosmic rays and these beams blast all sorts of near by galactic stuff. If super high energy collisions caused really catastrophic results the Hubble would have spotted it by now.

I think we are quite safe. IMHO..

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:45 pm

I understand the logic behind the cosmic rays argument, but I'm still worried when I think about it. Maybe I'm just paranoid. It's pretty depressing knowing that you're just a tiny part of the universe, and you're doomed if a vacuum bubble suddenly forms, or if scientists are wrong. Low energy collisions will be made this week and according to their schedule they will go to 3.5 TeV soon. Hopefully everything will be alright and I can stop being afraid after that.

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chelle
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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by chelle » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:50 pm

Hi Stephen,

What I read is that it will take two years before they are running full charge, so still enough time until then to post your concerns and find out what it's about, so relax.

I guess they 're just taking it one step at a time, ...

Perhaps over-time politics might become more involved and scientists will need to inform the general-public much better, instead of being a bit ignorant. I think they are kinda sneaky because they don't really know what is going to happen, this is a serious weakness and makes them also nervous, they are also very ambitious and keep pushing things forward to not loose the momentum, but we as humans still have ages to find out so no need to rush.

With the computing technology of today we could create visual graphics and dynamic fluid or other simulations so everyone understands the process much better and see what is dangerous or not. By doing so scientists will also learn much more instead of just smashing things, there could be an open debate and different proposals of what matter is and how it works.

Perhaps today, with a collider that hasn't got the strength of gamma-ray particles it isn't an issue, but there might come a day whether we as humans should ask ourselves do we really want to take the next step.

best,

chelle
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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Sun Dec 06, 2009 5:11 pm

Okay, I found something I don't understand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark%E2%80%93gluon_plasma

This is what physicists at the LHC are trying to create. It doesn't say anything about this plasma being created in cosmic rays.

1. If they are trying to create something that existed only during the big bang, how does the cosmic rays argument apply?

Under the "how it is created in the lab" section they say -"a resulting hot volume called a fireball is created after the collision. Once created, this fireball is expected to expand under its own pressure, and cool while expanding. By carefully studying this flow, experimentalists hope to put the theory to test."

2. Is this the same fireball already created by the RHIC? Then why are they saying it's never been created before?
3. It says this fireball will expand. How do they know the rate at which it will expand, and how are they sure it's going to decay before it causes any damage?

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by chriwi » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:13 am

There have benn such fireballs in all collider experiments at least of the last decade and the fireball will also be generated by cosmic particles hitting the earths atmpsphere, but they are by far not so dangerous as they sond like, evenso they become stronger with higher collision-energies the fireball itselve is nothing new at all.
The quark-gluonplasma is something new, but also small amounts of this should be generated by cosmic rays, so this by itselve should also not be very dangerous.

As for me there is onlyone frightening point of the opopnents of this experiment left: Evenso micro-blachholes might be generated by cosmic rays and by the LHC as well there are 2 little but maybe important differences:
1. for the cosmic rays athmosphere collitions the rays have an energy very much higher than that of the LHC collision , but the athmospheres atoms hit by them are rather at rest compared to the rest of our planet, so by conservationof impules the resulting blackhole should still have a very high velocety compared to the erarth and even if it will pass through the earth it will coume out the other side fast and will travel on into space not harming anything anymore. The hypothetical black hole of the LHC might be rather at rest or at low speed compared to the earth because the 2 protons come from differernt directions with roughly the same energy so therir impuls will combine to almost zero (relative to the rest of the LHC ant to the earth). Such a slow moving blackhole might interact differently with the matter of the earth than the previous described fast mooving one generated by cosmic rays, it might poossibly drawn to the center of the earth by earths gravity and might start to grow there, what cannot happen to the other one because it ist too fast.

Up to now it is not sure if blackholes will be generated in the LHC at all, if they will evaporate faster or grow faster and even if one of theese is drawn to the center of the earth it is not sure if it will eat up the earth in a matter of days or if it would rather take bilions of years.

I keep in mind that many things are possible, but if we are always affraid of all rear possibilities we couldn't try anything new at all. If humans were thinking like that from the beginning one they would never tryed to utilise fire (there was the possibility that the whole village would be burned or even worse, because from nature only huge forrestfires where known by them and it was not sure if fire could be contaied in a rather small space), or rather tryed to play with any chemicals (often in the hope to make gold), we would have stayed on a level likestoneage.
bye

chriwi

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Mon Dec 07, 2009 10:35 am

But it doesn't say this plasma is created by cosmic rays - they say it's possible that it exists in theoretical quark stars, but as far as I know this has never been observed before. So why do they say the cosmic rays are an indicator to the safety of the collisions?

As far as the problem you mentioned - the LSAG explains this too. It's true that the velocities are different, but denser stars than the earth, like white dwarfs and neutron stars are also being hit by cosmic rays, and if there was something dangerous that could have been created in those collisions, then objects like that couldn't have existed at all. It also says that even if somehow stable black holes were created and stayed on earth (which is impossible, but they still considered it) then it would take billions of years to become dangerous.

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by chelle » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:16 pm

If humans were thinking like that from the beginning one they would never tried to utilize fire (there was the possibility that the whole village would be burned or even worse, because from nature only huge forrestfires where known by them and it was not sure if fire could be contained in a rather small space)
Don't you think those primitives knew that when it rained, fire went out etc. who or what can stop a escalating event at a sub-atomic level?

There is an element of (self-)destructiveness in the psychology of humans, one has to be aware of that. Think of the Holocaust, or industrial pollution killing all the fish in the rivers, it isn't since the last decades that the industry is cleaning up, and it's all because of being ignorant, just doing and following a trent.

I love science and the things that are fabricated and done are often totally unbelievable, but do you honestly think there is no limit - haw far do you want to go and what more do you need in your life to be happy?

As shown in the other topic about sparks and cosmic rays, there is no one willing or able to answer my questions
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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Shadowdraxx » Tue Dec 08, 2009 3:43 pm

In regards to your topic about sparks etc, you have to remember all the things we can see in the universe, if these things were possible with any number of probability above like 0% we would have seen the trail of destruction by now.

For example, take into consideration our sun, think how millions of tons of crap is hurtled out of the core, then consider cosmic rays slamming this material, why is the sun still normal after billions of years, maybe its just fluke, ok ok so how about the billions of other suns out there how come they are normal?.

what about chunks of rock or planets with no atmosphere slammed with a centre of mass protons one million times the power of the lhc, why are they still normal?.

see where I am going here? there is always a theory that can be built on another theory bolted to another theory, this is good fun but at some point to have to look into the cosmos and realise the seriously epic power of events that occur out there all the time.

Some events that have so much power in them it throws radiation that would nuke a chicken in 1000th of a second and is 600 trillion miles in size, or have enough energy in them that they fire out radiation that spews all over the place, or as back to the cosmic ray bit, fires matter accross the universe millions of times more powerful than anything we can deliver.

A perfect example is the image hubble showed a few years back with two entire galaxies which are being slammed together, think of the energy involved in that, the size of the event, then look at the LHC, the sheer power difference is like as an example the lhc is a potato gun asked to stop a speeding train, then the universe says "lol LHC ill stop it for you", then slams the train with a nuke powerful enough to put a 6000 mile crater in the ground, and finishes with "oops sorry my gun was on minimum setting ill do better next time".

When you consider what nature can and is doing all the time, its then you realise what the LHC does is painfully pathetic.

edit: yet at the end we are all still here with all the destruction all the mad powerful events, the suns are still shining the planets still bobing about, no millions of mbh's that are nibbling away at things (for any events over the last 4 or so billion years), no matter/sparks (insert name here) stuff pac maning things, nope we've not seen any of this.

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:18 pm

But is it possible for the LHC to create something that doesn't currently exist in the universe, like quark-gluon plasma?

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Shadowdraxx » Tue Dec 08, 2009 4:27 pm

thats one of the things the LHC will create remember the words "currently exist" aka its existed before (no destruction) and it more than likey is manufactured in some of natures events.

RHIC data for the last 10 years gives a very good basis for how it works and its safety, (no destruction) and i also believe that heavy ion collisions are only about 10% of the LHC mandate aka not alot of time is going to be spent making it, because RHIC is still a superior collider when it comes to this stuff, its able change the ion's axis and such before collisons, providing unique data.

I'm not sure where to aquire RHIC data tho it doesnt seem as public as how cern is with the LHC

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by chelle » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:12 pm

if these things were possible with any number of probability above like 0% we would have seen the trail of destruction by now.
We do see supernovas; the principle is based on gravity collapse, but gravity is still not fully understood, isn't the search for the graviton still on. I believe there is every 50 years one of those in the Milky Way alone.
take into consideration our sun, think how millions of tons of crap is hurtled out of the core, then consider cosmic rays slamming this material, why is the sun still normal after billions of years
I don't think you can compare the Sun to our fragile planet. Yes indeed, rays from the Sun will smash into cosmic-rays, but this happens in a very cold wide open space. These collisions have miles and miles of free space to disperse, just like the cascades of cosmic rays on our planet, from omg in the heavens to muons on the ground. Think of the devastation of an explosion in a closed environment such a bus vs an open terrain.
chunks of rock or planets with no atmosphere slammed with a centre of mass protons one million times the power of the lhc, why are they still normal?.
True, but what do we actually know about cosmic rays, how do they get their energy is it; Kinetic, Potential or Mass, perhaps they are generated by the atmosphere and the attraction of the earth. We know almost nothing about these tiny objects, let's explore them a little bit better before moving on to the next level, we have plenty of time.
Some events that have so much power in them it throws radiation that would nuke a chicken in 1000th of a second and is 600 trillion miles in size, or have enough energy in them that they fire out radiation that spews all over the place, or as back to the cosmic ray bit, fires matter across the universe millions of times more powerful than anything we can deliver.
Like you said it will nuke everything insight, may I say that Supernova-explotions slows down over time and the shockwave loses it's energy, keeping a ball-shell of about 30 light years.
a few years back two entire galaxies slammed together, think of the energy involved in that,
I agree those are immense forces, but they all happen at an atomic level, It's like setting off a thousand ton of TNT, you don't get a fission or fusion reaction, I think. You can find energy interaction at all different levels, but we as humans are quite unique at what is happening at the LHC; creating constant beams of only protons and shooting them at similar beams from an opposite direction, how big are the chances of this to happen, in Universe? If it wasn't unique why can we just measure Higgs and such just everywhere?
When you consider what nature can and is doing all the time, its then you realise what the LHC does is painfully pathetic.
No, it's when you realize how fragile our planet is, and when you know how much time we have, that you realise that it is pathetic to rush things.

And can you tell me of an other terrestrial planet that has a fragile and tense crust like the earth with magma beneath, that when a volcano erupts it has amazing powers causing total devastation.
edit: yet at the end we are all still here with all the destruction all the mad powerful events, ...
True.
Last edited by chelle on Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Shadowdraxx » Tue Dec 08, 2009 7:33 pm

yeah i know my logic is flawed, but well i cant help but think somewhere out there in the universe comprised of at least a thousand billion galaxies (to what we can see), that something exactly like what we are doing is happening in nature, and what we can see of it based on the little energy we can create, so far all seems to be in order.

Of course there is alot we dont know about nature and the universe, thats why these things are created, but when it comes down to it, if I personally cant feel comfortable in trusting the scientists and all the people that helped build it, then I can at least look at above our heads and not be seeing all sorts of theorised things whizzing around us.

Guess this comes down to personal veiw really, so as such thats my view above, and I respect your thoughts in the other aspects, but ultimately im not educated enough to know all that they do, and cant show anything but the evidence in our galaxy etc.

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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by Stephen » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:57 am

Chelle, why don't you try to ask people who know physics these questions?
http://www.physforum.com/index.php?showforum=12

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chelle
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Re: I absolutely hate this experiment

Post by chelle » Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:54 am

Guess this comes down to personal view really, so as such thats my view above, and I respect your thoughts in the other aspects, but ultimately im not educated enough to know all that they do, and cant show anything but the evidence in our galaxy etc.
I appreciate your carefree way of looking at things, it's cool.

btw I'm now reading an excellent book that I could recommend to everyone about matter: Understanding the Universe from quark to Cosmos by Don Lincoln
Note, this one isn't about what I'm saying, it just about particles and such and it 's the best for a layman that I have encountered until now, Xymos perhaps you could set up a topic with books or media.

Stephen, thx for the link I'll make the leap one of these days, I'll drop a line over here when I do.
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