Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Anything can be discussed, tempers may flare.
This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site.

Moderator: CharmQuark

Forum rules
Any controversial topic can be discussed. Freedom of expression is encouraged. The scientific validity of things posted in this forum may stray from reality quite wildly and the reader is advised to keep that in mind. Please refrain from bad language and DO NOT get overly abusive with other members. You MUST post in English. It is OK to have fiercely intense debate. This forum has no connection with CERN, the LHC or my site. The views here do not represent the forum's views or my views in any way. It is meant as a place to debate or discuss subjects that may create heated debate. Almost no moderation will occur in this forum at all.
Post Reply
User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:35 am

For the last few topics things started to drift in the direction of BEC and other questions after this type of discussion (link):
Mailo wrote:
Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:When the next collision happens, all effects of the previous one are gone.
That is something you asume, how do you know?
I know how fast ionization recombines. I know how fast the created particles are. I know the collision happens in a better vacuum than outer space and the created particles rapidly spread out from there. When they encounter matter (e.g. detectors) they are already well separated and do not interact with each other.
So what about phonon-wind or other Quasiparticles in the lhc? Could they charge matter more than expected, do they stay unnoticed by the detectors, and move through a vacuum as we know it? btw there is a whole list of them.

For instance in regard to the quoted discussion above, a 'phonon' moves at the speed of sound, and in the case of BEC light passing through can be slowed down to a few meters per second.

How can we know that after a colision, all energy is gone before the next one happens, and if there isn't such a thing as an energy wind/waves exciting surrounding matter more and more, like rotating windmills or flapping flags.

Check this out: Soap films burst like flapping flags

or

flapping flags remain mystery
Many "simple" things are fraught with mystery. Consider a flag: Why does it flap, instead of streaming straight in a steady breeze? Five centuries after the Scientific Revolution swept the Western world, scientists surely can explain the flapping of flags, right? No, they can't -- not yet. But they're working on it. Flag-flapping poses one of "the essential difficulties of the general problem of elastohydrodynamics".

Image
source: http://flow.kaist.ac.kr/bbs/board.php?b ... l&wr_id=12

I know the analogy looks stupid, but the question is how rigid are atoms within a luminosity storm of particles?
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:25 am

I'll start to be worried after astronomers discover galaxies bouncing off each other. Till then I will keep my belief that things on our size scale have no relation to things on other size scales.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:30 am

Kasuha wrote:I'll start to be worried after astronomers discover galaxies bouncing off each other. Till then I will keep my belief that things on our size scale have no relation to things on other size scales.
Galaxies do interact.

Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galaxy#Interacting

and an animated simulation:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXy3B2K47Qg
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:37 am

Galaxies are not rubber balls. Their interaction is anything but bouncing off each other.
No surprise, particles are not rubber balls either.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:43 am

Kasuha wrote:Galaxies are not rubber balls. Their interaction is anything but bouncing off each other.
That is true, but the the question was:
"how rigid are atoms within a luminosity storm of particles?"
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 28, 2010 8:49 am

Is it relevant?

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:20 am

Kasuha wrote:Is it relevant?
Yep that's the question, and what is the relevance of Quasiparticles during collisions?
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 28, 2010 9:49 am

There's none.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 10:57 am

Kasuha wrote:There's none.
yeah sure.

Check this paper:
The field of event-by-event fluctuations is relatively new to heavy ion physics and ideas and approaches are just being developed. So far, most of the analysis has concentrated on transverse momentum and the net charge fluctuations.
The pioneering event-by-event studies have been carried out by the NA49 collaboration. They have analyzed the fluctuations of the mean transverse momentum and the kaon to pion ratio. Both measurements have been carried out at at the CERN SPS at slightly forward rapidities. In both cases mixed events can essentially account for the observed signal, leaving little room for genuine dynamical fluctuations.
Transverse momentum fluctuations should be sensitive to temperature/energy fluctuations. Fluctuations and Correlations in Heavy Ion Collisions - pdf
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Kasuha
Posts: 570
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by Kasuha » Wed Apr 28, 2010 11:29 am

What is the relevance of sound waves in air explosively decompressing to vacuum? None.
If ISS exploded, you could theoretically determine whether astronauts in it were screaming or not by carefully analysing the structure and distribution of material flying away in all directions. But it's definitely not going to change anything on the global result.

User avatar
chelle
Posts: 738
Joined: Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:32 am
Location: XL - BXL - B

Re: Quasiparticles, more energy in the lhc than expected?

Post by chelle » Wed Apr 28, 2010 2:22 pm

Kasuha wrote:What is the relevance of sound waves in air explosively decompressing to vacuum? None.
You get a bang, I would say.

Image
Kasuha wrote:If ISS exploded, you could theoretically determine whether astronauts in it were screaming or not by carefully analysing the structure and distribution of material flying away in all directions. But it's definitely not going to change anything on the global result.
I guess for an atom-bomb the blast is one of its most significant effects, along with nuclear fall out. Indeed screaming people wouldn't change a thing to the situation. But as in the case of breaking a wine-glass with sound, it's not only about the force of the phonetic-waves but also about the particular frequencies, resonating to the structure of the glass. Same thing for cooling atoms into BEC, you need to have the right frequency of photons and the right volume.
Dance, even if you have nowhere to do it but your own living room.
Wear Sunscreen by Baz Luhrmann - Mary Schmich

Post Reply