Chelle goes on ...

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Mailo
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:27 pm

Chelle wrote:What about phonon-wind.
http://guava.physics.uiuc.edu/~nigel/co ... s/gezo.pdf
Nonexistant. No lattice of atoms, thus no phonons. No cooling and no cloud of nano-Kelvin temperature gas of atoms, thus no BEC.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by CharmQuark » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:08 pm

Gawd :roll: as i have said before :D If we are gonna die we are gonna die :thumbup: nothing we can do about it is there :problem: so might as well just enjoy what time we have left :eh:
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:26 am

We are all going to die....eventually.

The likelihood of The LHC causing our deaths is vanishingly small. ie it's not gonna happen.

Concentrate your efforts on reducing REAL risks. Eating rubbish / drinking too much / bad driving / etc. These are the sorts of things that WILL eventually kill us and funnily enough, they are also things we can do something about.

Never mind "THe LHC will destroy us!!!!" ....It won't.

Just get on with life, and don't distress yourself with imaginings. Worry about REAL things if you must worry.

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chelle
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:28 am

Mailo wrote:
Chelle wrote:What about phonon-wind.
http://guava.physics.uiuc.edu/~nigel/co ... s/gezo.pdf
Nonexistant. No lattice of atoms, thus no phonons. No cooling and no cloud of nano-Kelvin temperature gas of atoms, thus no BEC.
Check this out:
Room temperature BEC
In the other paper, a group led by the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Münster in Germany has sparked interest by declaring the first room-temperature BEC.
"Usually, it is very difficult to create an equilibrium density of particles at high transition temperatures," explains Sergej Demokritov of Münster. "So until now the main approach has been to decrease the temperature below the transition temperature. Instead, we increase the density of particles for several microseconds to increase the transition temperature dramatically."
In this instance, the quasiparticles are "magnons" – the term used for packets of magnetic energy, in the same way "photons" are deemed packets of light energy. Demokritov and his team pumped magnons into solid films of the compound yttrium-iron-garnet using microwaves. When the pumping reached a critical rate, they could watch out for the formation of a BEC by monitoring the chemical potential of the magnons.
According to Demokritov, "unambiguous" proof of a BEC was found when the chemical potential reached that of the lowest magnon state. "If the lifetime of the particles is much longer than the time they need to scatter with each other, [thermal equilibrium] condensation is still possible. In our case, the ratio between the lifetime and the scattering time is at least above 30."
The argument seems to fold into a question of relative timescales. If the quasiparticles interact with each other much more quickly than they decay, it is justifiable to predict the formation of a BEC. And both groups' experiments easily satisfy this criterion. "It's a bit like going from valves to transistors," says Deveaud-Plédran. "The effect is the same, but the size, the temperature and the practicability differ a lot."
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/25971
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by tswsl1989 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 6:34 am

So you need "Polaritons" in a 2D confined system (neither available nor practical within the LHC) or you need to pump a very specific metal film using microwaves.

So that paper is irrelevant to your arguments.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chriwi » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:06 am

THe conditions they usted to create this room temperature EBC are far different then the conditons existing ion the LHC. Tht doesn't meanthat it is strictliy impossible that an BEC might be also created by the LHC, cut if this would occur the rangee of scenarios for creating an EBC would be very wide, therby many other thinkable scenarios could cause the creation of EBC as well. So that would mean we should rather stop trying anything what is not exactly precedented in nature before because if the range of danger is that wide anything unprecedented (and let it be only aslight change in parameters compared to a well known scenario) could produce EBC or even something more dangerous unknown.
Does that mena we should stop everything new and to be very careful with every moove we mak that doesn't happen to be done in a sligtlydifferent way than it was ever done before, because that might be dangerous?
bye

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Tue Apr 27, 2010 7:35 am

I already posted this in the "dumb holes" section.....but it seems relevant here too...

If we want to learn new things, we must go places we have not been before. This should be fairly obvious.

If we do not want to learn new things we will stagnate. This too is fairly obvious.

If you have a fear of new knowledge you should seek help rather than try to scare others.
This also is blindingly obvious.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chriwi » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:02 am

Why should perferring stagnation from taikng minor risks be considdered a mental illnes or something one needs help for?
In my opinoin that is also an aceptable point of viel like being vegan or Amish.
bye

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:05 am

tswsl1989 wrote:So you need "Polaritons" in a 2D confined system (neither available nor practical within the LHC) or you need to pump a very specific metal film using microwaves.
So that paper is irrelevant to your arguments.
That is fair to say, but just like me you pick out the parts that seem to defend your case. That's why I quoted, the second part of that article, that talks about the other paper, which is about "magnons" and to quote it again:

"Usually, it is very difficult to create an equilibrium density of particles at high transition temperatures," explains Sergej Demokritov of Münster. "So until now the main approach has been to decrease the temperature below the transition temperature. Instead, we increase the density of particles for several microseconds to increase the transition temperature dramatically."
chriwi wrote:Does that mean we should stop everything new and to be very careful with every move we make that doesn't happen to be done in a slightly different way than it was ever done before, because that might be dangerous?
It doesn't mean that we should stop everything, there are thousands of cool ongoing projects at this moment. And one of those is going in to the red alert zone. I think scientists in general should act responsible and say let's put this one on hold before we know a few bits more about the impact of cosmic rays on solid matter. There is no need to rush, why not build a satellite-funnel to measure impact, like CRater, or set up bases on the moon, to get a better insight on TLP's, and build some more magnetic funnel(s) that collects particles, put a curve in the collector and aim a beam at whatever, or lets make a proton-cannon to shoot at the jelly aliens that may surface and who scare Stephen Hawking. We have millions of years to do fun things, enough resources to keep 'm going, we shouldn't be selfish and endanger ourselves the coming decennia because we are in a curiosity rush … the race is long, and in the end, it’s only with ourself.
mrgumby wrote:If you have a fear of new knowledge you should seek help rather than try to scare others. This also is blindingly obvious.
Go tell this to Stephen Hawking :)
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by tswsl1989 » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:12 am

Chelle wrote:
tswsl1989 wrote:So you need "Polaritons" in a 2D confined system (neither available nor practical within the LHC)or you need to pump a very specific metal film using microwaves.
So that paper is irrelevant to your arguments.
That is fair to say, but just like me you pick out the parts that seem to defend your case. That's why I quoted, the second part of that article, that talks about the other paper, which is about "magnons" and to quote it again: [snip]
Emphasis added. The bolded part of my quote refers specifically to the second paper.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:15 am

For pities sake......All Stephen Hawking said, is that if we ever run into life that is not earth based, we should be careful. This is very reasonable.

It also has nothing to to do with your technophobic rantings.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chriwi » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:26 am

Hi Chelle,

you didn'really get my point: My statement was that your theories about the possible outcome of the LHC are so far feched, that also most ohter new experiments or actions could be conneted to dangers in thesame way (maybe by other people) and who knows who of you is right.
Apearantly the size and the impression of ultimatly high enrgies lets the LHC become easyer become a target for fears than many ohter smaller experiments which could be connected to dangers with the same arguments as well (evenso I still agree that most of theese arguments cannot be proofn impossible but only very unlikely).
bye

chriwi

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Kasuha » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:28 am

There's always chance somebody will unintentionally create a new form of intelligent life while cooking soup for dinner. Wouldn't it be shame if your soup ate you?
Be vigilant!

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:33 am

its probably about 1 in 1E100 but there is a probability.....lets ban soup!

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Tue Apr 27, 2010 8:42 am

chriwi wrote:Why should perferring stagnation from taikng minor risks be considdered a mental illnes or something one needs help for?
In my opinoin that is also an aceptable point of viel like being vegan or Amish.

I didn't say that.

I said "if you have a fear of new knowledge you should seek help"

That is quite different.

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