Chelle goes on ...

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chelle
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Chelle goes on ...

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:38 am

Alien life, he will suggest, is almost certain to exist in many other parts of the universe: not just in planets, but perhaps in the centre of stars or even floating in interplanetary space. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/s ... 107207.ece
From the guy who came up with Hawking radiation, and one of the leading scientists that 'knows' that the lhc is safe.

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It makes me think of how financial authority Alan Greenspan used to be a visionary, and if I may quote him, regarding how the financial marked crashed:
In Congressional testimony on October 23, 2008, Greenspan acknowledged that he was "partially" wrong in opposing regulation and stated "Those of us who have looked to the self-interest of lending institutions to protect shareholder's equity — myself especially — are in a state of shocked disbelief." Referring to his free-market ideology, Greenspan said: “I have found a flaw. I don’t know how significant or permanent it is. But I have been very distressed by that fact.” Rep. Henry Waxman (D-CA) then pressed him to clarify his words. “In other words, you found that your view of the world, your ideology, was not right, it was not working,” Waxman said. “Absolutely, precisely,” Greenspan replied. “You know, that’s precisely the reason I was shocked, because I have been going for 40 years or more with very considerable evidence that it was working exceptionally well.” Greenspan admitted fault in opposing regulation of derivatives and acknowledged that financial institutions didn't protect shareholders and investments as well as he expected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan
If you look at the numbers and frequency of Cosmic Rays, than there is absolutely no reason that anyone can say that the lhc is safe. It is just like the financial bankers that knew that the market where not healthy, but they refused to be rational, and cut in their own flesh, because everything was going just fine.
Last edited by chelle on Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by mrgumby » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:17 am

This has been said before.......If you want to use analogies that is fine, but you will not impress anyone unless your analogies are relevant to your topic.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 10:27 am

mrgumby wrote:This has been said before...
... by you of course (link)
mrgumby wrote:If you want to use analogies that is fine, but you will not impress anyone unless your analogies are relevant to your topic.
My example is very clear, how people, who should know what they are doing, ignore the numbers, prefer to dream of aliens, and just keep on pushing forward. Just like you ignored them, when I presented the facts to you, you accused me of "Your numbers are just made up to suit your theories". If you wish to keep on living in denial please do, but don't accuse me of being dishonest.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 11:02 am

It was also said by me, should I now feel insulted? :D

Your analogies ARE worthless, and you DO make up numbers to fit your current hypotheses.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 1:56 pm

Mailo wrote:Your analogies ARE worthless,

For sure, just like it is this time the case, ...
Mailo wrote:and you DO make up numbers to fit your current hypotheses.
The numbers I bring up here are correct. And they don't fit my hypotheses, as I haven't added any numbers to them. What I have said is that increasing the frequency of collisions, increases the luminosity at a rate that doesn't exist in nature, and that it's dangerous because it might trigger a combustion scenario, in reference to the LSAG-Report:
The LHC reproduces in the laboratory, under controlled conditions, collisions at centre-of-mass energies less than those reached in the atmosphere by some of the cosmic rays that have been bombarding the Earth for billions of years. We recall the rates for the collisions of cosmic rays with the Earth, Sun, neutron stars, white dwarfs and other astronomical bodies at energies higher than the LHC. http://cern.ch/lsag/LSAG-Report.pdf
Which doesn't represent the whole truth, as the rate of collisions in nature is 1 vs. 10^27 in the lab, now that is a huge difference What is perhaps even more important is that we don't know what 'Ultra-high-energy cosmic rays' are. They only appear on the outskirts of our atmosphere, where they aren't surrounded by structured matter as it is the case right here on earth. If you want to ignore these facts for your own mental well being, that's ok, but you can't use them as valid arguments to prove the lhc is safe.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chriwi » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:14 pm

Thats correct, at least what you say about the luminosity, but it also doesnt't gif the slitsest logigal hint that it has to be dangerous and also all your combustionidesa with out any analogy which come only close to particle collissions is rather far fetched and thereby unlikely.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Shadowdraxx » Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:59 pm

So Hawking watched Independence day and thought hmm there might be something in that, doesn't mean he's a moron who doesn't understand the complexities of nature.

However if you want to believe that fair enough, just stop ramming it down other peoples throats.

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 4:31 pm

My mental well being is just fine (well, concerning LHC safety, my wife would probably disagree with the general statement ;) ), thanks so much. I don't need to ignore the points you bring up, I am quite able to see the glaring logical faults you keep putting into them.

I don't have any connection to the LHC since 2001, and I certainly don't feel the need to defend it. Quite the opposite, if I could see any point to your or Ivan's rantings, I'd be tempted to try for a Nobel prize with it. Unfortunately pretty much all of your starting points are already flawed, so it doesn't really matter how much you try to construct around those, the result will still be just as flawed.

Once more, there is no difference between measuring longer with a lower frequency of collisions or shorter with a higher. Thus, 1s of LHC is rather nicely simulated by 100 years of atmospheric collisions. Especially since your "structured matter" also does not ... matter (drumroll, cymbals, thank you very much, I'm here every night, bad puns on demand).

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:02 pm

Mailo wrote:... there is no difference between measuring longer with a lower frequency of collisions or shorter with a higher. Thus, 1s of LHC is rather nicely simulated by 100 years of atmospheric collisions. Especially since your "structured matter" also does not ... matter
Measuring might be the same, but the effects of a higher frequency can be different. Remember the breaking of a wine glass analogy, check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KuwJXMQUdc
chriwi wrote:... it also doesn't give the slightest logical hint that it has to be dangerous and also all your combustion ideas without any analogy which come only close to particle collisions is rather far fetched and thereby unlikely.
True, but like in the case of the wine-glass when you strike it, you find out the resonant note of that object, so it is a matter of turning up the volume and they start to break. This same phenomenon might also take place with regard to protons that may be put into a state of agitation, question is how high should the volume be turned up before the same phenomenon takes place. btw one bell will resound by the noise only of another bell which is in unison with it, or at the distance of an octave, a fifth or a third, tingelingeling.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:16 pm

Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:... there is no difference between measuring longer with a lower frequency of collisions or shorter with a higher. Thus, 1s of LHC is rather nicely simulated by 100 years of atmospheric collisions. Especially since your "structured matter" also does not ... matter
Measuring might be the same, but the effects of a higher frequency can be different. Remember the breaking of a wine glass analogy, check this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KuwJXMQUdc
And once again you counter with an analogy that has no relevance whatsoever to the subject at hand :) Yes, you can shatter a wineglass with sound of the right frequency. You can also get punched in the face if you insult someone repeating an offensive word at just the right frequency. Relevant to the LHC? No.

The EFFECTS are the same, I wasn't talking about measuring them. LHC collides bunches at a frequency of 40 MHz. When the next collision happens, all effects of the previous one are gone. Why don't you try staying on subject (proton collisions) for once, instead of quoting irrelevant examples from all walks of life?

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:39 pm

edit: double post, pls remove.
Last edited by chelle on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:45 pm

Mailo wrote:LHC collides bunches at a frequency of 40 MHz.
Sure, but when speed/energy is increased, the volume also increases.
Mailo wrote:When the next collision happens, all effects of the previous one are gone.
That is something you asume, how do you know? It all comes down to the story of Three Little Pigs:

The first little pig builds a house of straw, but a wolf blows it down and eats the first little pig. The second pig builds a house of sticks, but with the same ultimate result. Each exchange between wolf and pig features ringing proverbial phrases, namely:

"Little pig, little pig, let me in!"
"Not by the hair on my chinny-chin-chin!"
"Then I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow myself in"


The third pig builds a house of hard bricks. How hard does the lhc needs to blow before the brick-house will fall in, or do you pigs think it's all safe, no pun intended.

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Mailo wrote:Why don't you try staying on subject (proton collisions) for once, instead of quoting irrelevant examples from all walks of life?
This is not just something irrelevant, the first postulate of Quantum Mechanics say's that for every possible state of a particle there is a wave function associated with it.
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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:37 pm

Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:LHC collides bunches at a frequency of 40 MHz.
Sure, but when speed/energy is increased, the volume also increases.
Which volume? If you mean with more energy more particles are created, true, but that still doesn't change anything.
Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:When the next collision happens, all effects of the previous one are gone.
That is something you asume, how do you know?
I know how fast ionization recombines. I know how fast the created particles are. I know the collision happens in a better vacuum than outer space and the created particles rapidly spread out from there. When they encounter matter (e.g. detectors) they are already well separated and do not interact with each other.
Chelle wrote:It all comes down to the story of Three Little Pigs:

The first little pig builds a house of straw, but a wolf blows it down and eats the first little pig. The second pig builds a house of sticks, but with the same ultimate result. Each exchange between wolf and pig features ringing proverbial phrases, namely:

"Little pig, little pig, let me in!"
"Not by the hair on my chinny-chin-chin!"
"Then I'll huff, and I'll puff, and I'll blow myself in"


The third pig builds a house of hard bricks. How hard does the lhc needs to blow before the brick-house will fall in, or do you pigs think it's all safe, no pun intended.

Image
Please, please, PLEASE tell me you didn't just try to argue cutting edge science with a children's tale. That's scraping the bottom of the barrel, even for you. Oh, and thanks for calling us pigs. That always helps, when you run out of arguments, simply insult people.
Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:Why don't you try staying on subject (proton collisions) for once, instead of quoting irrelevant examples from all walks of life?
This is not just something irrelevant, the first postulate of Quantum Mechanics say's that for every possible state of a particle there is a wave function associated with it.
And for every possible state of little piggy, there's a BBQ grill associated with it. See, I can argue on your level :laughing-rolling:

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by pixelmasseuse » Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:56 pm

Mailo wrote:And for every possible state of little piggy, there's a BBQ grill associated with it. See, I can argue on your level :laughing-rolling:
Don't be so quick to discount the possibility of GP (Grill-Piggy) symmetry violations!

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Re: Don’t talk to aliens, warns Stephen Hawking

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 26, 2010 8:22 pm

Mailo wrote:
Chelle wrote:
Mailo wrote:When the next collision happens, all effects of the previous one are gone.
That is something you asume, how do you know?
I know how fast ionization recombines. I know how fast the created particles are. I know the collision happens in a better vacuum than outer space and the created particles rapidly spread out from there. When they encounter matter (e.g. detectors) they are already well separated and do not interact with each other.
What about phonon-wind.
http://guava.physics.uiuc.edu/~nigel/co ... s/gezo.pdf
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