Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

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Wallmott
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Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Wallmott » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:42 am

Even though the science community agrees that the lhc will cause no danger and that there are no real theories that says it will some anti lhc people will still say, how can you be sure?

Well have not they already been proven wrong?

Let me explain what i mean.

Walter L Wagner stared it all back in 2000 - 2001 when the RHIC were haveing its start up and did try to get it shut down because of all the fears that he had because he said that he had theories etc for black holes etc.

Since then we have had :

RHIC running for 9 years at 500 GeV

LHC running at 900 GeV

LHC running at 2,36 TeV

So it all started with RHIC and nothing happend, and now we had WAY higher energies than that and nothing happened.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by chriwi » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:52 am

That is a good hint but sure no proove that still nothing will happen during going to higher enrgies.
Besides that proofs that something will never happen under no circumstances are very rare in physics since there are always possibilities for effects that are very seldom but still can happen one day, especially in quantumphysics where everything dealswith probabilities and not with alittlebit of everything.

Therefor doing completely new things can never be proofn 100% safe, but careful considerations can limit the chance of amajor desaster to 1:1.000.000 or even much less.
bye

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Kasuha
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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Kasuha » Fri Mar 26, 2010 11:27 am

The matter is, they cannot ever be really proven wrong. They don't stand behind their threats, the moment you disprove one they come with another. And their approach is always the same:
"We say your machine is dangerous and You prove us it isn't"

They come with theory that you can create miniature black holes by smashing rock with hammer and ask you to prove they're wrong. And when you're at it and take it seriously, you come to conclusion that it indeed can happen although the chance for that to happen is so small that if there was such a hammer on each proton in whole universe then maybe one black hole would be created ... and that moment they come and say "See? We told you it can happen. Now put the hammer down, slowly!".

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by March_Hare » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:18 pm

The escape for the anti-LHC crowd out of any of this is probably that most LHC collisions so far have been at the same energy level as TEVATRON can muster (0.9 TeV), so that's "nothing special". Afaik there has only ONCE been a fill at higher energy with actual collisions above the TEVATRON level (2.3 TeV or thereabouts, that was in December).

So the tinfoil hat argumentation will likely be that (a) we were lucky that nothing bad happened, and/or that (b) catastrophes can only happen at higher energy levels.

(On a side note: crackpots never give up - which is what makes them different from scientists. They just find some convenient error in their "calculations" and keep on predicting doom from there. "Forgot to multiply by 10" would do the trick, as in: "oh! er! it's not 1.4 TeV but 14 TeV!").
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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Shadowdraxx » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:17 pm

In the case of Wagner, he has never ever actually said "he believe's" because of his own work.

He likes to sound important because he shows other peoples work that "indicates" all this stuff Anti LHC ppl say.

Asking Wagner to show physics is like asking a goldfish to talk.

Every anti LHC person pulls points from highly hypothetical idea's (most are not theories), and then the assume its theory then assume something else and after 15 assumptions you have global destruction.

The real theories out there the ones that science cant rule out with current data, are the ones they really like to toy with.

As an example:

The black hole one, just goes round in circles this one to the anti LHC crew - note in its first inception to create one, it must then dissipate via hawking radiation, that's the theory, you cant just go around hacking it to bits like they do, assuming some bits are true and others are not, the theory isn't just make believe its years of maths based on experimental data/workings/theories, which is brought together as string theory, these guys just take the juicy bits and in the blanks they ripped out add in "but what if".

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by chelle » Fri Mar 26, 2010 7:54 pm

March_Hare wrote:On a side note: crackpots never give up - which is what makes them different from scientists.
I think it's the other way around, as long as there are experimentalists that keep on pushing the boundaries, there will be some eyebrows raised.
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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Stephen » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:16 pm

Shadowdraxx wrote:Every anti LHC person pulls points from highly hypothetical idea's (most are not theories), and then the assume its theory then assume something else and after 15 assumptions you have global destruction.
These assumptions are unlikely, but possible. CERN has repeatedly stated that there is a zero percent chance of the world being destroyed, so it should be able to address any claims being made, even if they are highly theoretical. Of course we now know that there is nothing to be afraid of, but the reasons for that are not because the anti LHC people's arguments are very speculative.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Wallmott » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:31 pm

Stephen wrote:
Shadowdraxx wrote: but the reasons for that are not because the anti LHC people's arguments are very speculative.
The Anti LHC peoples arguments not very speculative?

Dude, they are only very very speculative. If you have ever read and understood the papers where they are quoteing from you will see that they just cherry pick words and meanings from the papers to make it sound dangerous.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Stephen » Sat Mar 27, 2010 2:40 pm

Wallmott wrote: The Anti LHC peoples arguments not very speculative?
Did you actually read what I wrote? Just because certain assumptions are highly theoretical, it doesn't mean they are wrong and it's certainly not enough to determine the experiment is safe.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Kasuha » Sun Mar 28, 2010 7:34 am

Stephen wrote:Did you actually read what I wrote? Just because certain assumptions are highly theoretical, it doesn't mean they are wrong and it's certainly not enough to determine the experiment is safe.
They are certainly not enough to determine the experiment is unsafe.
And we should distinguish 'highly theoretical' from 'ignoring known physical reality'. They may seem the same to normal people and that's the main thing anti-whatever people are playing with.

There is highly theoretical assumption that in next two years you will kill ten or more people, Stephen. In your own words, just because it's highly theoretical, it doesn't mean it's wrong and it's certainly not enough to determine it's safe to not put you to jail.

Certain people completely fail to see what's wrong on this line of thought.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Xymox » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:03 am

Im gonna move this thread into controversial topics.. As thats what it is..

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Xymox » Sun Mar 28, 2010 9:35 am

Jeeze....

How many times does this need to be rehashed...

Its amazing.. Over the decades,,, its always been,,, that science is gonna destroy the world.. The Atom bomb was gonna ignite the entire worlds atmosphere for example..

I have a different view...

While I DO NOT understand it, I think there is destiny. I think the future and past are just aspects of a dimension. Time. So I think the future exists already. Somehow. Over my lifetime I have seen what appears to be way to many coincidental things occuring for random fate to be involved.

Another relly weird thing seems to be that everything works out for the right reason given enough time. This seems to happen for everything.

SO..... Everything always happens for a good reason. As completely weird and impossible as our current science and math seems to prove.

No way the LHC is gonna kill us. Makes no sense at all. No way the world is gonna end tuesday.

Trust.... Its a important thing that is natural. Many people have forgotten how to trust the future. Its all about believing that everything happens for a good reason and it seems everyone has forgotten this.


Of course what could have caused the "big crunch" that might have preceded the "big bang" is someone with a collider... heheehheeheheh.... AND a good thing might be that it is time for a new big crunch and our destiny is to collapse the universe into the next big bang...

BAD CHRIS :violence-stickwhack:

Hehehehehe.......

But yea... The whole prove/disprove a collider is gonna end mankind is a really old debate for amateurs to undertake wrongly. Its a important topic but professionals need to be the ones making the decisions in a peer reviewed manner with oversight committees. Someone who reads a few forum posts and decides all the experts are wrong really needs to be put away... Exploring the unknown is always going to be risky, thats where trust in the future comes in. We would be nowhere if we each did not do things that we could not predict the outcome of. Just driving a car might end your world today. Are you gonna trust that it will be ok ? YES YOU WILL... RISK is more about trusting fate to have a good outcome than anything else.

Lets just have some fun and explore the unknown, even if its risky.. Its FUN and everything will be fine... Sit back, relax and enjoy the ride...

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Stephen » Sun Mar 28, 2010 12:54 pm

Kasuha wrote:There is highly theoretical assumption that in next two years you will kill ten or more people, Stephen. In your own words, just because it's highly theoretical, it doesn't mean it's wrong and it's certainly not enough to determine it's safe to not put you to jail.

Certain people completely fail to see what's wrong on this line of thought.
First of all, you can't prove something is safe by discussing the safety of another object. Certain people completely fail to see what's wrong in this line of thought.

Second, when physicists claim there is a zero percent chance of the world being destroyed, they need to be held accountable for that statement, and address any safety arguments directed towards them.
Xymox wrote:Its amazing.. Over the decades...its always been...that science is gonna destroy the world.. The Atom bomb was gonna ignite the entire worlds atmosphere for example..
Everything happens for a reason and eventually turns out to be okay?

Nuclear weapons still have the potential to destroy the entire world.
Can you point out anything positive about the extreme regime in Iran?
Did the second world war help anyone?
How about 9\11?
Chernobyl?

I'm not sure if you actually believe in what you wrote or you are just in a very optimistic mood today, but it seems incredibly naive to stop worrying and put our lives in the hands of hope and faith. If I have safety concerns I will ask professors for answers, and not pray for things to work out in the end.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Kasuha » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:12 pm

Stephen wrote:First of all, you can't prove something is safe by discussing the safety of another object.
I agree with you. There's no proof or guarantee you'll not turn into mass murderer. That's why I think you should go to jail.
Stephen wrote:Second, when physicists claim there is a zero percent chance of the world being destroyed, they need to be held accountable for that statement, and address any safety arguments directed towards them.
"There is no basis for any concerns about the consequences of new particles or forms of matter that could possibly be produced by LHC"
I don't see any "zero chance" mentioned here. If you want to take anybody accountable for their statements, please learn these statements first.

I also wonder if the "anti-LHC" people will take their share of responsibility because the damage they did by their statements is in fact much bigger. As far as I know, at least one person commited suicide based on their statements and there is other damage caused by them.

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Re: Anti LHC, already proven wrong?

Post by Shadowdraxx » Sun Mar 28, 2010 4:23 pm

well this "zero risk" thing all came because well in physics nothing is zero, but because the anti-lhc people say ahh there is a risk then, they went down the line the the chance is closer to zero than risk.

I don't blame them tbh.

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