Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

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llo
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by llo » Fri Apr 16, 2010 8:36 pm

Chelle wrote:
llo wrote:... so maybe LHC will tap into some kind of macro scale negative entropy.
I bet she will.
And it seems your justification for this belief is the fact that mosquitos cause disease.

Not sure why, but all this reminds me a little of this monty python scene: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3jt5ibfRzw
Last edited by llo on Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kasuha
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:24 pm

Chelle wrote:
llo wrote:... so maybe LHC will tap into some kind of macro scale negative entropy.
I bet she will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVaHG_QMvNk
Second law of thermodynamics is about the universe being more likely to go to a more probable state instead of a less probable state. Such as if you have a box full of dice and they're all turned with 6 up, then if you will be mixing that box they will never return to the same way ever again.
On particle level, it's like you have box with two dice - of course here it can happen that they go from random state to ordered state and the chance for it is relatively high. On macroscopic scale you can imagine that your box contains not two dice but two billions of dice. There still is a chance that by shaking that box they will magically turn all with 6 up but chances for that happening are too small for the size of our universe to let it ever happen. If you think that it still can happen, try the following: Buy a mechanical alarm clock (with wheels and springs), take it apart, put all parts to a bag and shake it until it assembles again. I wish you lots of fun.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 8:05 am

llo wrote:And it seems your justification for this belief is the fact that mosquitos cause disease.
I used the example of the mosquito because someone came up with a human tissue analogy. For you I will use the example of generating combustion with a loupe (magnifying glass) by concentrating a bunch of photons into one place. Waaaoaah, it doesn't seem that the sun creates fires when it hits our planet, but it sure does when we concentrate it, mh.

Image

The lhc concentrates collisions in a tiny spot, at a rate of about 10^27 times more than what happens on the edge of our atmosphere in a moving volume of m^2, what do you think.

I'd say they should do a test with a large funnel hanging out off the ISS, or on the moon and concentrate/accelerate a beam of protons on matter, would it start to combust?

Image
Kasuha wrote:Second law of thermodynamics is about ... On particle level, it's like you have box with two dice ...
What has chance got to do with this, its about interaction of different substances, either they will or they won't.

Anyway check this out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5RJLvQXce4A
(Don't mind the first 15 seconds or should we?)
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:24 am

Chelle wrote:bout interaction of different substances, either they will or they won't.
Oh really? I thought it was about saving baby whales :think:
Seems like you changed topic all of a sudden...

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:42 am

Kasuha wrote:Seems like you changed topic all of a sudden...
edit: Could be, let me check.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:28 am

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:bout interaction of different substances, either they will or they won't.
Oh really? I thought it was about saving baby whales :think:
Seems like you changed topic all of a sudden...
"llo" referred earlier to "macro scale negative entropy."

"Macro" is not relevant when it comes to a combustion process where an array of radiating fireballs could generate organized BEC.

That's why I mentioned the article "Second law of thermodynamics "broken"":
They found that the change in entropy was negative over time intervals of a few tenths of a second, revealing nature running in reverse. In this case, the bead was gaining energy from the random motion of the water molecule - the small-scale equivalent of the cup of tea getting hotter. But over time intervals of more than two seconds, on overall positive entropy change was measured and normality restored. http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2572

And that's why I posted the clip of the endothermic reaction where two dry mixed substances cool water and create structured ice.

So I was not wrong to point out that it has got nothing to do with chance, and say that its about interaction of different substances, either they will "combust" or they won't.
Last edited by chelle on Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Sat Apr 17, 2010 10:52 am

There's nothing like macro scale negative entropy.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 11:02 am

Kasuha wrote:There's nothing like macro scale negative entropy.
Entropy is a measure of how organized or disorganized a system is. If in a cloud after a Supernova a new Solar System is born, than what are we talking about?
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Stephen » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:06 pm

Chelle wrote: I agree with Ivan if he says "Nuclear physicists are all criminals now." these experiments are no longer nonchalance, as I first thought. I wish I could hitchhike my way to an other planet, cause the whole lhc is bogus.
What are you exactly afraid of? Magnetic traps, BEC or fireballs?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by CharmQuark » Sat Apr 17, 2010 3:21 pm

Chelle :D you have a real talent for drawing :thumbup: please don't be scared :shifty: if anything it's the Aliens that will come for us :thumbup: good times ;)
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by llo » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:26 pm

Kasuha wrote:There's nothing like macro scale negative entropy.
It was such a warm sunny day today! I decided to take advantage of it...

I did an experiment. My wood stove consistently reaches temperatures above 600C. I wanted to see what would happen if I brought the residue from that inferno back up to temperature. So I brought a pile ashes from my wood stove outside onto the patio. I then pulled out a very large magnifying glass and concentrated the sunlight onto the ashes to see what would happen. It's a very hot day and the magnifying glass is very big. I calculated that I was able to raise temperature of the ash up to 599C - nearly the operating temperature of the stove.

An amazing thing happened at that point... Some sort of chain reaction was triggered in the ash. The air around it became very cold, and a flaming log appeared where the ash pile used to be! I removed the magnifying glass, but the log continued to burn for a good half-hour.

I'm not sure what exactly happened, but maybe this phenomenon can be used as a way to power cars.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:41 pm

Chelle wrote:Entropy is a measure of how organized or disorganized a system is. If in a cloud after a Supernova a new Solar System is born, than what are we talking about?
From entropy point of view, we are looking at increasing entropy. The system is changing from less probable state to more probable state.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:59 pm

llo wrote:Some sort of chain reaction was triggered in the ash. The air around it became very cold, ...
Idiot.

Anyway: "The wick of a candle does not burn since the vaporising wax cools the wick."
http://www.helium.com/items/1163220-how-a-candle-burns
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:31 pm

Stephen wrote:
Chelle wrote: I agree with Ivan if he says "Nuclear physicists are all criminals now." these experiments are no longer nonchalance, as I first thought. I wish I could hitchhike my way to an other planet, cause the whole lhc is bogus.
What are you exactly afraid of? Magnetic traps, BEC or fireballs?
Combustion of matter, during experiments on both edges of our existence (hot & cold), reactions have surfaced such as bose-nova's and fireballs, is there still a need to push these limits any further.
CharmQuark wrote:Chelle, you have a real talent for drawing :thumbup:
Thx Emmylou, my drawing talent is rather limited, but I try to handle it like kindergardeners have a go at it; scribbling, using the colors I like and enjoying myself. I think that a lot of grownups who aren't good at drawing either, give up on it while it's just fun to do and relax, no matter what the result is.
CharmQuark wrote:please don't be scared

There are 3 natural reactions when you are threatened: fight, run or freeze.
CharmQuark wrote:if anything it's the Aliens that will come for us :thumbup: good times ;)
Regarding the aliens, I'm keeping my mouth shout.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:33 pm

Kasuha wrote:
Chelle wrote:Entropy is a measure of how organized or disorganized a system is. If in a cloud after a Supernova a new Solar System is born, than what are we talking about?
From entropy point of view, we are looking at increasing entropy. The system is changing from less probable state to more probable state.
And if a Supernova explodes, it's a decreases ... what is the relevance?
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