Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

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chelle
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Mon Apr 12, 2010 5:23 pm

Mailo wrote:What is a "bosonic" atom? If you meant "a boson", the quoted paragraph is simply wrong. An atom is either a boson, or not.
With bosonic-atom I meant an atom that is cooled down into BEC.
Mailo wrote:I also agree that it is very easy ...
If you don't know the answers so be it, but please don't start accusing an other, to cover up your own ass. If you have something sensible to contribute, please do.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Mailo » Mon Apr 12, 2010 9:38 pm

My ass is usually covered quite nicely, thanks for asking :D

I'll try one last time:
In 1976 L. H. Nosanow and W. C. Stwalley [3] suggested that spin-polarized atomic
hydrogen would retain its gaseous state down to arbitrarily low temperature. The single
fermionic proton and electron combine to form the spin states zero and one. As the
hydrogen molecule has an electronic spin, zero ground state (singlet), a gas of atoms, all
with the same total spin cannot combine to form molecules except in three-body
collisions. Thus a gas of stable bosonic particles could be achieved.
Source: Information about the 2001 Nobel prize in Physics from the Nobel webpage
Note the gas of hydrogen atoms is called "gas of stable bosonic particles", as the two fermions that make up a hydrogen atom (a proton and an electron) combine their spins of 1/2 each to a total spin of 0 or 1, which makes the whole atom a boson.
Again, if you didn't catch it the first time it was mentioned, any particle that has a spin of 0, 1, 2, etc. is a boson, while any particle that has a spin of 1/2, 3/2, 5/2 etc is a fermion.

Feel free to go on claiming something different, but at least other people reading this should be able to tell the difference between your unsubstantiated claim and that of a Nobel prize winning entry.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by MagneticTrap » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:51 am

It is a riddle, - where did thousands of atoms disappeared in the “bose-nova implosion” of cold bosonic gas.
Supposition A: A microscopic black hole was formed and it was immediately evaporated; the process of evaporation was accompanied by multiple barion-lepton annihilation.
Supposition B: Thousands of gas particles condensed into solid or liquid droplet and it was lost by experimentalists.
The answer to your riddle is rather easy. Imagine you look through a microscope at some object on the slide. Then someone suddenly bumps against the table, and the object disappears. Would you assume that a micro black hole just ate your object? No, of course not. Same thing happened here. The observation methods are focussed at the spot where the BEC forms. If you add 1/100th of the energy of a candle flame into the BEC, it will immediately disperse, and to the observer the atoms will have "disappeared".
Yes, according to me, the probability of A is much much less than B. But I can not exclude this possibility. Subnuclear condensates are much more real and are extremely dangerous. I fear just the subnuclear condensates.
Sidenote: What's a baryon-lepton annihilation? A baryon hits a lepton and both annihilate? If you can prove that, you got the next Nobel prize for sure ...
Did you heard about baryogenesis in the wrecked Big Bang model? I think that baryons and leptons are born by pairs there. If baryogenesis is possible, then baryocide is also possible. In fact, not bariocide, but baryo-lepton annihilation, because of the existence of the next obligatory reaction.

Did you heard about a monopole magnetic catalyses of proton decay?
Some theorists wrote the formula M + p = .. = M + e^+, where M – magnetic monopole; p – proton; e^+ positron.

If you wrote the next reaction, you will see the “baryon-lepton annihilation”, e^+ + e^- = photons.

Some theorists are dreaming to receive the energy from this “annihilation source of energy”.

But I said that this source of energy will work from 1000 seconds to 1000 days, because the first formula is incorrect. I would rewrite it in the form:
M_{n} + p = .. = M_{n+1} + e^+, where M is magnetic dipole; index near M is the number of bosons in dipole magnetic hole. If you subscribe to this unknown boson the barionic number, equal to 1, and leptonic number, equal to 1, then the laws of conservation of barionic and leptonic numbers would be conserved. This my supposition is more preferable in my 4-d rotating model of Universe. I hate religious BB-dogma.
Bigbangers try to test their religion at LHC and thus they are ready to kill our world.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chriwi » Tue Apr 13, 2010 5:58 am

chelle & mailo,

I think you have here at first a controversy of terms and thereby talk about 2 different things.

Chelle consoiders all atoms (even H1 and HE4) just as atoms and calls them only bosonic when they form a BEC behaving like one gigant atom and calls this a "bosononic atom". So he really differentiates only between the different properties of everyday atoms and BEC.

Mailo rather distinguishes between atoms with a full numbered spin which are scinetiffically considered as bosons and other atoms with a broken numbered spin considered as fermins.

So mailo compares atoms of different elements and chelle compares ordinary atoms of whatever element to BEC.
bye

chriwi

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Stephen » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:14 am

MagneticTrap wrote:But I said that this source of energy will work from 1000 seconds to 1000 days, because the first formula is incorrect. I would rewrite it in the form:
M_{n} + p = .. = M_{n+1} + e^+, where M is magnetic dipole; index near M is the number of bosons in dipole magnetic hole. If you subscribe to this unknown boson the barionic number, equal to 1, and leptonic number, equal to 1, then the laws of conservation of barionic and leptonic numbers would be conserved.
What is your justification for rewriting the formula?

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:55 am

Mailo wrote:My ass is usually covered quite nicely, thanks for asking :D

I'll try one last time:
In 1976 L. H. Nosanow and W. C. Stwalley [3] suggested that spin-polarized atomic
hydrogen would retain its gaseous state down to arbitrarily low temperature. The single
fermionic proton and electron combine to form the spin states zero and one. As the
hydrogen molecule has an electronic spin, zero ground state (singlet), a gas of atoms, all
with the same total spin cannot combine to form molecules except in three-body
collisions. Thus a gas of stable bosonic particles could be achieved.
Source: Information about the 2001 Nobel prize in Physics from the Nobel webpage
Note the gas of hydrogen atoms is called "gas of stable bosonic particles", as the two fermions that make up a hydrogen atom (a proton and an electron) combine their spins of 1/2 each to a total spin of 0 or 1, which makes the whole atom a boson.
Again, if you didn't catch it the first time it was mentioned, any particle that has a spin of 0, 1, 2, etc. is a boson, while any particle that has a spin of 1/2, 3/2, 5/2 etc is a fermion.

Feel free to go on claiming something different, but at least other people reading this should be able to tell the difference between your unsubstantiated claim and that of a Nobel prize winning entry.
A nobel price doesn't mean a thing if you ain't got that swing :banana-dreads:

Anyway the quote is a good one because it talks about hydrogen molecules and not atoms but that's not relevant, what is important is that the wise-guy says:

The two fermions that make up a hydrogen atom (a proton and an electron) combine their spins of 1/2 each to a total spin of 0 or 1, which makes the whole atom a boson.

It clearly states the the atom is no longer the same, and as of then it can start to combine and make a "giant atom" like chriwi pointed out. It's like Tango-dancers who form a couple that cannot dance synchronous with others, but if you put on some carnival music the individuals can start to dance the Conga, and ad up close to each other.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Xymox » Tue Apr 13, 2010 7:59 am

Nice example

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:01 am

Xymox wrote:Nice example
Which one of the ladies are you referring to, or are you talking about my analogy?
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Mailo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:30 am

Chelle wrote:Anyway the quote is a good one because it talks about hydrogen molecules and not atoms but that's not relevant, what is important is that the wise-guy says:

The two fermions that make up a hydrogen atom (a proton and an electron) combine their spins of 1/2 each to a total spin of 0 or 1, which makes the whole atom a boson.

It clearly states the the atom is no longer the same, and as of then it can start to combine and make a "giant atom" like chriwi pointed out. It's like Tango-dancers who form a couple that cannot dance synchronous with others, but if you put on some carnival music the individuals can start to dance the Conga, and ad up close to each other.
We really need a /headpalm emote here ...

The spins of electron and proton ALWAYS combine to either 0 or 1, in every hydrogen atom in every water molecule in every freaking ocean in the universe. NOT only when said atoms are in a BEC. But nice dancers.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Kasuha » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:13 pm

Mailo wrote:We really need a /headpalm emote here ...
Google at your service...
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by CharmQuark » Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:36 pm

LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO God :whistle:
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted with large ones either by Albert Einstein.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 2:35 pm

Mailo wrote:
Chelle wrote:what is important is that the wise-guy says:

The two fermions that make up a hydrogen atom ...
We really need a /headpalm emote here ...
Indeed D'oh and that jesus omg-pose, because I quoted u while I wanted to quote the wise-guy. And you are also correct to say that an "atom stays an atom" be it a solid, liquid, gas or BEC.

But for all these different phases the atoms interact differently. And that was what I wanted to point out in the quote, spin-polarized Hydrogen hasn't got the same interaction behavior as normal Hydrogen. These polorised atoms can do the Conga and become BEC, but regular Hydrogen can't, while they are both a bunch of Bosons.

The interesting thing is that the composition of BEC is highly-unstable, and dischargeable, in the same way that primed plutonium is unstable; firing neutrons and left-over-energy. What do we know about the energy and the particles that are flying around during a Bosenova?
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Mailo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 3:24 pm

Chelle wrote:The interesting thing is that the composition of BEC is highly-unstable, and dischargeable, in the same way that primed plutonium is unstable; firing neutrons and left-over-energy. What do we know about the energy and the particles that are flying around during a Bosenova?
Quote from the guys doing the experiment:
Carl Wieman of the University of Colorado at Boulder and Eric Cornell of the National Institute of Standards and Technology wrote:The condensate first shrunk into small clumps as expected, but rather than gradually clumping together in a mass, a sudden explosion sent hundreds of atoms rushing outward.

...

"The 'missing' atoms are almost certainly still around in some form, but just not in a form that we can detect them in our current experiment," Wieman told SPACE.com. "The two likely possibilities are that they have formed into molecules of two rubidium atoms stuck together, or they have gotten enough energy from somewhere to fly away fast enough that they are out of our observation region before we look for them."

...

"The amounts of energy involved in all this stuff we see is infinitesimally small compared to any normal scale, so it could never be usefully harnessed," he said. "For example, the amount of energy contained in the motion of one room-temperature gas atom moving in the air is about 100,000 times larger than the total energy contained in the entire bosenova explosion that we see."
Link
A few hundreds of atoms that formed molecules or hugged the wall of the chamber, with a total energy of less than a single room temperature atom. Scary.

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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by chelle » Tue Apr 13, 2010 4:59 pm

Carl Wieman of the University of Colorado at Boulder and Eric Cornell of the National Institute of Standards and Technology wrote:"The amount of energy contained in the motion of one room-temperature gas atom moving in the air is about 100,000 times larger than the total energy contained in the entire bosenova explosion.
A single molecule in the air has an average kinetic energy 3/80 eV. (Electronvolt)

So they say that a gas atom that practically has no velocity, has 10^5 more energy than a group of 10^4 atoms that explodes, hè?

Nuclear fission: Most of the energy released (nuclear fission) is in the form of the kinetic velocities of the fission products and the neutrons. When a uranium nucleus fissions into two daughter nuclei fragments, an energy of ~200 MeV is released. For uranium-235 typically ~169 MeV appears as the kinetic energy of the daughter nuclei, which fly apart at about 3% of the speed of light.

And: ... the condensate shrank to below our resolution limit, and after ∼5ms emitted a burst of high-energy atoms.

Actual measurements of velocity and composition regarding these flying particles would be interesting.
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Re: Several biggest errors of particle physicists.

Post by Mailo » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:59 pm

Yes, they do ... you read way too much into the word "explode". The atoms themselves are just fine, they just moved out of the area visible in the experiment. Moving 10^4 atoms 20cm to the side does not require very much energy. Nuclear fission has nothing to do whatsoever with it.

And yes, if the average atom has a kinetic energy of 10^-10 eV (at the 150nK necessary for the BEC), giving 10^-8eV to one of them makes that one "high energy" compared to the others. Everything is relative.

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